Comments on: Rome, Falling http://blog.janehaddam.com/2010/02/05/rome-falling/ Jane Haddam’s WordPress weblog Tue, 07 Sep 2010 20:55:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: jd http://blog.janehaddam.com/2010/02/05/rome-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-1902 jd Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:29:01 +0000 http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1319#comment-1902 I haven't done much reading about Rome but what I have read leaves me with the impression that "ennui" fits the whole empire and not just the pagan religion. During the Republic, the Roman army was made up of citizens and anyone who wanted to go into politics had to first serve in the army. That meant that leading families sent their sons into the army Toward the end of the Empire, the army was mostly barbarians and I get a feeling that the ordinary people in the empire treated security as the job of someone else. I'm reminded of the fact that in World War 2 every university had ROTC and their graduates became officers. Whereas now, the universities have shut down ROTC. I haven’t done much reading about Rome but what I have read leaves me with the impression that “ennui” fits the whole empire and not just the pagan religion.

During the Republic, the Roman army was made up of citizens and anyone who wanted to go into politics had to first serve in the army. That meant that leading families sent their sons into the army

Toward the end of the Empire, the army was mostly barbarians and I get a feeling that the ordinary people in the empire treated security as the job of someone else.

I’m reminded of the fact that in World War 2 every university had ROTC and their graduates became officers. Whereas now, the universities have shut down ROTC.

]]> By: robert_piepenbrink http://blog.janehaddam.com/2010/02/05/rome-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-1901 robert_piepenbrink Fri, 05 Feb 2010 20:37:36 +0000 http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1319#comment-1901 Part of this is a perspective problem, of course. We don't see how much of Darius and Xerxes lives on, because it doesn't live on with us. The same is true of much of South Asian and East Asian history. Also, nations and empires fall in different ways. Carthage is just gone: people, language, culture, religion, everything. We have the histories of their destroyers, a smattering of archeology, and more or less informed guesswork based on their relatives in the eastern Med. We're not a lot beter off with the Picts. Best guess now is Celts and a sort of Briton, but the best guess 70 years ago was quite different. We know what the ancient Egyptians were, but despite genetic continuity, they're vanished as a people: no trace of language, culture or religion survive. But Rome isn't like that. Transport a Roman of 410 AD to 2010 AD, and he could folow a Latin mass, language and belief both. He could sound out writing, and if he stuck to basic things--bread, wine and water; geographical terms and family relationships--he could understand and be understood in at least three or four provinces of the Empire. It probably wasn't more than five or six at the peak of the empire, and he'd have had trouble with accents then. What happened to Rome in the West is that the people remained, adulterated by invaders and immigrants, but the government passed away. Most of the other changes were the consequence of that one big one. But western Rome at the end was a hugely bureaucratic structure, spending much of its revenue just to keep the government going, unable to provide for the safety and prosperity of the citizens, and unable to arrive at and implement decisions in a timely manner. The moral reserves which rebuilt Rome after it was sacked by the Gauls and kept it going when Hannibal was at the gates were long exhausted. We can be sure THAT won't happen again. Part of this is a perspective problem, of course. We don’t see how much of Darius and Xerxes lives on, because it doesn’t live on with us. The same is true of much of South Asian and East Asian history.
Also, nations and empires fall in different ways. Carthage is just gone: people, language, culture, religion, everything. We have the histories of their destroyers, a smattering of archeology, and more or less informed guesswork based on their relatives in the eastern Med. We’re not a lot beter off with the Picts. Best guess now is Celts and a sort of Briton, but the best guess 70 years ago was quite different.
We know what the ancient Egyptians were, but despite genetic continuity, they’re vanished as a people: no trace of language, culture or religion survive.
But Rome isn’t like that. Transport a Roman of 410 AD to 2010 AD, and he could folow a Latin mass, language and belief both. He could sound out writing, and if he stuck to basic things–bread, wine and water; geographical terms and family relationships–he could understand and be understood in at least three or four provinces of the Empire. It probably wasn’t more than five or six at the peak of the empire, and he’d have had trouble with accents then.
What happened to Rome in the West is that the people remained, adulterated by invaders and immigrants, but the government passed away. Most of the other changes were the consequence of that one big one.
But western Rome at the end was a hugely bureaucratic structure, spending much of its revenue just to keep the government going, unable to provide for the safety and prosperity of the citizens, and unable to arrive at and implement decisions in a timely manner. The moral reserves which rebuilt Rome after it was sacked by the Gauls and kept it going when Hannibal was at the gates were long exhausted.

We can be sure THAT won’t happen again.

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