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	<title>Comments on: All Over The Map</title>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1746</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1746</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m always a bit suspicious about these stories of ideal hunter-gatherer societies. I suspect that, like in the most egalitarian of families, there is a lot going on that members understand and see but non-members don&#039;t. And these groups in particular are extended families, not societies. 

They do have some structure - their chief or elder gets the best bit of the baboon - and their pacifism may be as much due to the way they are vastly outnumbered by the people now moving into their territory. They eat reasonably well, but are starved for protein. They have gender-specific tasks - but their lives in general allow for very little in the way of individual interests or jobs. There&#039;s little entertainment, no mention of healers or midwives, no religious or spiritual life, no care of or interest in animals or plants other than the immediately practical...and there&#039;s really no place for the sickly or elderly (unless they&#039;re healthy and strong). I&#039;d have no place in a narrow society (or extended family) like that; I&#039;d find it incredibly narrow and limiting. Hurray for agriculture, say I!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m always a bit suspicious about these stories of ideal hunter-gatherer societies. I suspect that, like in the most egalitarian of families, there is a lot going on that members understand and see but non-members don&#8217;t. And these groups in particular are extended families, not societies. </p>
<p>They do have some structure &#8211; their chief or elder gets the best bit of the baboon &#8211; and their pacifism may be as much due to the way they are vastly outnumbered by the people now moving into their territory. They eat reasonably well, but are starved for protein. They have gender-specific tasks &#8211; but their lives in general allow for very little in the way of individual interests or jobs. There&#8217;s little entertainment, no mention of healers or midwives, no religious or spiritual life, no care of or interest in animals or plants other than the immediately practical&#8230;and there&#8217;s really no place for the sickly or elderly (unless they&#8217;re healthy and strong). I&#8217;d have no place in a narrow society (or extended family) like that; I&#8217;d find it incredibly narrow and limiting. Hurray for agriculture, say I!</p>
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		<title>By: Lee B</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1745</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1745</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t met many people who actually *wanted* to be dominated (although I&#039;ve met a few), but I&#039;ve met quite a few (and read about many more) who thought that *other people* ought to be dominated. Either by them, or by other people who thought like they did. Obviously, the world would be much better if everyone thought like they did, or at least was forced to act as if they did. This desire doesn&#039;t seem to be limited to any particular class or party or religion.

Do the French intellectuals want to be dominated themselves, or do they just want some right-thinking person to dominate everybody else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t met many people who actually *wanted* to be dominated (although I&#8217;ve met a few), but I&#8217;ve met quite a few (and read about many more) who thought that *other people* ought to be dominated. Either by them, or by other people who thought like they did. Obviously, the world would be much better if everyone thought like they did, or at least was forced to act as if they did. This desire doesn&#8217;t seem to be limited to any particular class or party or religion.</p>
<p>Do the French intellectuals want to be dominated themselves, or do they just want some right-thinking person to dominate everybody else?</p>
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		<title>By: Lymaree</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1744</link>
		<dc:creator>Lymaree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1744</guid>
		<description>Gail, I realize the rest of the  world was still there during the MAs, but it&#039;s funny how even when we start out talking about some other area, we end up talking about England. 

As for submitting to a tyrant, I&#039;m not so sure. Just read a National Geographic article about a tribe of hunter-gatherers who live as humans did for hundreds of thousdands of years. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/12/hadza/finkel-text
Great article. No leaders. No set groups in which to live, people move freely from group to group, and spouse to spouse. Women are free and equal, though there are gender-specific tasks. Their environment provides enough food that subsistence takes fewer of their hours than working does of ours. 

So apparently there isn&#039;t really an inborn human need for power, or the exercise or submission to same. It&#039;s interesting to observe an entire human society where having enough and no more, and desiring no more is actually valued. Probably comes from having to move constantly. More possessions mean less mobility, and mobility is survival to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gail, I realize the rest of the  world was still there during the MAs, but it&#8217;s funny how even when we start out talking about some other area, we end up talking about England. </p>
<p>As for submitting to a tyrant, I&#8217;m not so sure. Just read a National Geographic article about a tribe of hunter-gatherers who live as humans did for hundreds of thousdands of years. <a href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/12/hadza/finkel-text" rel="nofollow">http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/12/hadza/finkel-text</a><br />
Great article. No leaders. No set groups in which to live, people move freely from group to group, and spouse to spouse. Women are free and equal, though there are gender-specific tasks. Their environment provides enough food that subsistence takes fewer of their hours than working does of ours. </p>
<p>So apparently there isn&#8217;t really an inborn human need for power, or the exercise or submission to same. It&#8217;s interesting to observe an entire human society where having enough and no more, and desiring no more is actually valued. Probably comes from having to move constantly. More possessions mean less mobility, and mobility is survival to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1743</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1743</guid>
		<description>I think I know more about the middle ages in England because that&#039;s what I had access to information about and what fascinated me at an impressionable age. I know a little about what is now France, but almost nothing about anywhere else. They must have *had* middle ages of one sort or another, at least the European people did; other regions probably went through different stages differently labelled. Of course, Russia emancipated her serfs very late...I wish I knew more about Russia than the communist revolution and Catherine the Great.

London was a powerful city. Still is, I guess. But I think that in the Middle Ages the kings didn&#039;t assume they controlled London until they were actually installed there, without the citizenry rioting in the streets and with the civic authorities showing up to lend their support.

I think it&#039;s a bit misleading to talk of people wanting to submit to a tyrant, particularly in sexual terms. As Robert said, just about anyone will trade some degree of freedom for some degree of power or riches or authority. I think our need to belong is important, too. We all have it and satisfy it in various ways, with our families and our professions and our friends and our nations or regions and so on and so forth. Mostly this is probably beneficial - we feel comfortable in a bone-deep way that probably is generated by our genes. We give up some of our autonomy, sacrificing time and energy to the benefit of the group, and besides comfort, we get to be part of something bigger than ourselves; something that can produce things that we cannot on our own.

Of course, like all human endeavours, this can go wrong. We can end up destroying our family in an attempt to protect it or destroying others in order to protect our family or our society. But it&#039;s not a case of wanting to be dominated; wanting to be a slave. It&#039;s a case of wanting connection with others or to be part of something big and permanent and important - and giving in order to get this. Giving time and money and energy. Giving all those at the request of someone who promised what we want...it&#039;s just a normal human process of creating a society, gone wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I know more about the middle ages in England because that&#8217;s what I had access to information about and what fascinated me at an impressionable age. I know a little about what is now France, but almost nothing about anywhere else. They must have *had* middle ages of one sort or another, at least the European people did; other regions probably went through different stages differently labelled. Of course, Russia emancipated her serfs very late&#8230;I wish I knew more about Russia than the communist revolution and Catherine the Great.</p>
<p>London was a powerful city. Still is, I guess. But I think that in the Middle Ages the kings didn&#8217;t assume they controlled London until they were actually installed there, without the citizenry rioting in the streets and with the civic authorities showing up to lend their support.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a bit misleading to talk of people wanting to submit to a tyrant, particularly in sexual terms. As Robert said, just about anyone will trade some degree of freedom for some degree of power or riches or authority. I think our need to belong is important, too. We all have it and satisfy it in various ways, with our families and our professions and our friends and our nations or regions and so on and so forth. Mostly this is probably beneficial &#8211; we feel comfortable in a bone-deep way that probably is generated by our genes. We give up some of our autonomy, sacrificing time and energy to the benefit of the group, and besides comfort, we get to be part of something bigger than ourselves; something that can produce things that we cannot on our own.</p>
<p>Of course, like all human endeavours, this can go wrong. We can end up destroying our family in an attempt to protect it or destroying others in order to protect our family or our society. But it&#8217;s not a case of wanting to be dominated; wanting to be a slave. It&#8217;s a case of wanting connection with others or to be part of something big and permanent and important &#8211; and giving in order to get this. Giving time and money and energy. Giving all those at the request of someone who promised what we want&#8230;it&#8217;s just a normal human process of creating a society, gone wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Gail</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1742</link>
		<dc:creator>Gail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1742</guid>
		<description>Lymaree, there was a “Middle Ages” throughout Europe – filled with Italian artists like Cimabue, the French authors of the chanson de geste (i.e. The Song of Roland – a great read), philosophers like Aquinas.  As far as Turkey – not an area I know a lot about.  Islamic and Byzantine influences are all over Italy and Spain, brought there primarily during those early centuries that Christianity was blooming.  And, the emergence of literature like Scheherazade’s tales dates to that period, I believe.  Well – they were probably very early Middle Ages.  

As far as the Middle Class in the Middle Ages goes – am I correct in remembering that the King of England had to appeal to the Londoners for permission to rule?  Or did Shakespeare mislead me on that?  After the plague, skilled workers were in high demand throughout Europe – hence a strong middle class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lymaree, there was a “Middle Ages” throughout Europe – filled with Italian artists like Cimabue, the French authors of the chanson de geste (i.e. The Song of Roland – a great read), philosophers like Aquinas.  As far as Turkey – not an area I know a lot about.  Islamic and Byzantine influences are all over Italy and Spain, brought there primarily during those early centuries that Christianity was blooming.  And, the emergence of literature like Scheherazade’s tales dates to that period, I believe.  Well – they were probably very early Middle Ages.  </p>
<p>As far as the Middle Class in the Middle Ages goes – am I correct in remembering that the King of England had to appeal to the Londoners for permission to rule?  Or did Shakespeare mislead me on that?  After the plague, skilled workers were in high demand throughout Europe – hence a strong middle class.</p>
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		<title>By: robert_piepenbrink</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1741</link>
		<dc:creator>robert_piepenbrink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1741</guid>
		<description>OK, haven&#039;t read the Revel either and read the same piece on aldaily.
There do seem to be people who like taking orders, but I don&#039;t think there are very many of them: they just make a convenient excuse. It was easier to say Germans were rejecting freedom in voting for Hitler than to say they were trading some freedoms for riches and power. THAT might hit uncomfortably close to home elsewhere.
This is the point at which I would usually cite Ayn Rand on &quot;second-handers&quot; and &quot;Attila the Hun and the Witch Doctor&quot; on the superstition of the powerful and the worship of raw power on the part of intellectuals--but I think that too is comfort rather than analysis.

You can make a better case that an intellectual hopes for influence over a totalitarian state he will never have in a free one. No Obama &quot;Science Czar&quot; will ever have the power of a Lysenko.

But try this one: for many people--intellectuals at least as much as anyone else--being important is a high priority, and importance is very much a zero-sum game. In the United States, a political theorist probably teaches political science somewhere, and if he&#039;s diligent and reasonably competent he&#039;ll have tenure, and be able to afford a house in the suburbs and a respectable car. He will publish in a university press--hundreds of copies of each volume. And no one will know his name except for a few freshmen who will have forgotten it by their junior year. In Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or China perhaps even today, the same theorist will publish by samizdat, be locked up in lunatic asylums or sent off to destructive labor camps. In which society is he taken seriously? In which is he important? It&#039;s worth repeating that the defection of the intellectuals begins about when they could see what status they would have in a free prosperous society.

I think the number of people who simply don&#039;t want to be free--who would prefer a life of slavery--is right up there with the number of people who want to have sex with chickens. The number who would trade some freedom for something else--power, riches, security--is pretty much everyone: it&#039;s a matter of finding the balance. But the number who would give up their freedom--or at least the freedom of others--in order to be important could be a large and troubling element.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, haven&#8217;t read the Revel either and read the same piece on aldaily.<br />
There do seem to be people who like taking orders, but I don&#8217;t think there are very many of them: they just make a convenient excuse. It was easier to say Germans were rejecting freedom in voting for Hitler than to say they were trading some freedoms for riches and power. THAT might hit uncomfortably close to home elsewhere.<br />
This is the point at which I would usually cite Ayn Rand on &#8220;second-handers&#8221; and &#8220;Attila the Hun and the Witch Doctor&#8221; on the superstition of the powerful and the worship of raw power on the part of intellectuals&#8211;but I think that too is comfort rather than analysis.</p>
<p>You can make a better case that an intellectual hopes for influence over a totalitarian state he will never have in a free one. No Obama &#8220;Science Czar&#8221; will ever have the power of a Lysenko.</p>
<p>But try this one: for many people&#8211;intellectuals at least as much as anyone else&#8211;being important is a high priority, and importance is very much a zero-sum game. In the United States, a political theorist probably teaches political science somewhere, and if he&#8217;s diligent and reasonably competent he&#8217;ll have tenure, and be able to afford a house in the suburbs and a respectable car. He will publish in a university press&#8211;hundreds of copies of each volume. And no one will know his name except for a few freshmen who will have forgotten it by their junior year. In Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or China perhaps even today, the same theorist will publish by samizdat, be locked up in lunatic asylums or sent off to destructive labor camps. In which society is he taken seriously? In which is he important? It&#8217;s worth repeating that the defection of the intellectuals begins about when they could see what status they would have in a free prosperous society.</p>
<p>I think the number of people who simply don&#8217;t want to be free&#8211;who would prefer a life of slavery&#8211;is right up there with the number of people who want to have sex with chickens. The number who would trade some freedom for something else&#8211;power, riches, security&#8211;is pretty much everyone: it&#8217;s a matter of finding the balance. But the number who would give up their freedom&#8211;or at least the freedom of others&#8211;in order to be important could be a large and troubling element.</p>
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		<title>By: Lymaree</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1740</link>
		<dc:creator>Lymaree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1740</guid>
		<description>Apparently my view of the Middle Ages is so skewed as to not resemble reality. So where did I get these ideas? Disney cartoons? I&#039;m not sure. It&#039;s been a long time since I read the greater part of A Distant Mirror, and so perhaps I&#039;ve recycled those neurons for other purposes.

What I find interesting is that we (or I at least) tend to think of the Middle Ages as having occurred pretty much exclusively in England. Italian MA? Turkish MA? Not so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently my view of the Middle Ages is so skewed as to not resemble reality. So where did I get these ideas? Disney cartoons? I&#8217;m not sure. It&#8217;s been a long time since I read the greater part of A Distant Mirror, and so perhaps I&#8217;ve recycled those neurons for other purposes.</p>
<p>What I find interesting is that we (or I at least) tend to think of the Middle Ages as having occurred pretty much exclusively in England. Italian MA? Turkish MA? Not so much.</p>
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		<title>By: jem</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/12/15/all-over-the-map/comment-page-1/#comment-1739</link>
		<dc:creator>jem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=1168#comment-1739</guid>
		<description>There are many people who are afraid to think for themselves.  This characteristic can be found in groups as well as individuals. Buying into an ideology that encourages blind obedience to an established agenda leaves disciples with little responsibility. I&#039;ll not name the several cults and religious groups that expect &quot;pay, pray and obey&quot; from their members. I&#039;m not crazy about the self esteem movement (if it is one) but to think for yourself--even about the most minute things-- and develop some self respect is the way to avoid considering yourself victimized by anyone else. I mention again the current movie &quot;Precious,&quot; and the book it was made from PUSH. The young woman protagonist begins as a victim but slowly digs herself out of it and begins to love herself and take responsibilty for her life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many people who are afraid to think for themselves.  This characteristic can be found in groups as well as individuals. Buying into an ideology that encourages blind obedience to an established agenda leaves disciples with little responsibility. I&#8217;ll not name the several cults and religious groups that expect &#8220;pay, pray and obey&#8221; from their members. I&#8217;m not crazy about the self esteem movement (if it is one) but to think for yourself&#8211;even about the most minute things&#8211; and develop some self respect is the way to avoid considering yourself victimized by anyone else. I mention again the current movie &#8220;Precious,&#8221; and the book it was made from PUSH. The young woman protagonist begins as a victim but slowly digs herself out of it and begins to love herself and take responsibilty for her life.</p>
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