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	<title>Comments on: Versus</title>
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		<title>By: cperkins</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-865</link>
		<dc:creator>cperkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 17:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-865</guid>
		<description>Not available in the local libraries yet, alas. I must keep an eye out for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not available in the local libraries yet, alas. I must keep an eye out for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mique</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-864</link>
		<dc:creator>Mique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 14:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-864</guid>
		<description>Ah, Clive James - one of my favourite people, and one of Australia&#039;s better gifts to the British - the perfect antidote to the likes of Germaine Greer and John Pilger.

I&#039;ve been pushing his most recent book which deserves the widest possible readership.  It&#039;s called &quot;Cultural Amnesia: Notes in the Margin of my Time&quot; and its available from Amazon here:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&amp;field-keywords=Cultural+Amnesia&amp;x=0&amp;y=0

It&#039;s one of the greatest collection of essays I can ever remember and I heartily recommend it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Clive James &#8211; one of my favourite people, and one of Australia&#8217;s better gifts to the British &#8211; the perfect antidote to the likes of Germaine Greer and John Pilger.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been pushing his most recent book which deserves the widest possible readership.  It&#8217;s called &#8220;Cultural Amnesia: Notes in the Margin of my Time&#8221; and its available from Amazon here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&#038;field-keywords=Cultural+Amnesia&#038;x=0&#038;y=0" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&#038;field-keywords=Cultural+Amnesia&#038;x=0&#038;y=0</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s one of the greatest collection of essays I can ever remember and I heartily recommend it.</p>
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		<title>By: cperkins</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-863</link>
		<dc:creator>cperkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 13:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-863</guid>
		<description>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8064449.stm

&quot;Still looking for the western feminists&quot; - about feminists, Western democracies, and the rest of the world.

For the record, I think I&#039;m a feminist, but when they do those little charts showing the various versions of feminism, I&#039;m in one of the categories in back, or in the &#039;historical development&#039; section, sometimes called &#039;liberal feminism&#039;; the equal pay for work of equal value, give everyone a chance to try anything in the job market type.

I never liked some of the other versions, but I don&#039;t let that stop me from calling myself a feminist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8064449.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8064449.stm</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Still looking for the western feminists&#8221; &#8211; about feminists, Western democracies, and the rest of the world.</p>
<p>For the record, I think I&#8217;m a feminist, but when they do those little charts showing the various versions of feminism, I&#8217;m in one of the categories in back, or in the &#8216;historical development&#8217; section, sometimes called &#8216;liberal feminism&#8217;; the equal pay for work of equal value, give everyone a chance to try anything in the job market type.</p>
<p>I never liked some of the other versions, but I don&#8217;t let that stop me from calling myself a feminist.</p>
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		<title>By: Mique</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-862</link>
		<dc:creator>Mique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 12:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-862</guid>
		<description>Whether it&#039;s considered to be back to conscription or not, it would not - or at least should not - be given a second thought by any government, except in extremis.  I doubt if the professional military anywhere would recommend such a policy. For the most part, ie there have been exceptions, unwilling conscripts make lousy soldiers.

The more I reflect upon the problems of modern day society, the more I agree with Cheryl that a large part of any answer will lie in somehow regaining the  when an ordinary person could take pride in, and earn respect from, and everyone appreciated the simple dignity of, doing an honest day&#039;s work for an honest day&#039;s pay. 

The idea that a person ought to aim for a professional career because they have the highest earning potential is as nonsensical as the idea that every back-yard ball player can aspire to the major leagues if only they practise hard enough.  Parents should learn to accept that it is cruel abuse to push their children to achieve the parents&#039; ambitions.  Think poor Bertie in Scotland Street!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether it&#8217;s considered to be back to conscription or not, it would not &#8211; or at least should not &#8211; be given a second thought by any government, except in extremis.  I doubt if the professional military anywhere would recommend such a policy. For the most part, ie there have been exceptions, unwilling conscripts make lousy soldiers.</p>
<p>The more I reflect upon the problems of modern day society, the more I agree with Cheryl that a large part of any answer will lie in somehow regaining the  when an ordinary person could take pride in, and earn respect from, and everyone appreciated the simple dignity of, doing an honest day&#8217;s work for an honest day&#8217;s pay. </p>
<p>The idea that a person ought to aim for a professional career because they have the highest earning potential is as nonsensical as the idea that every back-yard ball player can aspire to the major leagues if only they practise hard enough.  Parents should learn to accept that it is cruel abuse to push their children to achieve the parents&#8217; ambitions.  Think poor Bertie in Scotland Street!</p>
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		<title>By: cperkins</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-861</link>
		<dc:creator>cperkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 10:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-861</guid>
		<description>Back to conscription? I don&#039;t think that would fly! And I&#039;m not sure it would address the issue, either. You can take a horse to water, but you can&#039;t make it drink. If a group of people are convinced that military service in defense of your country is not a good idea, forcing them into it isn&#039;t going to change their minds.

I&#039;d go for a high school program that leaves them with useful skills, a de-emphasis on the university as the be-all and end-all of life, and greater value on practical abilities and practical skills. 

Of course, I have no idea how to make society-wide changes along these lines!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back to conscription? I don&#8217;t think that would fly! And I&#8217;m not sure it would address the issue, either. You can take a horse to water, but you can&#8217;t make it drink. If a group of people are convinced that military service in defense of your country is not a good idea, forcing them into it isn&#8217;t going to change their minds.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d go for a high school program that leaves them with useful skills, a de-emphasis on the university as the be-all and end-all of life, and greater value on practical abilities and practical skills. </p>
<p>Of course, I have no idea how to make society-wide changes along these lines!</p>
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		<title>By: jd</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-860</link>
		<dc:creator>jd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 08:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-860</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know why my post cane out twice! Lymarre perhaps a term in the military might be required for all physically fit men and women BEFORE admission to university.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know why my post cane out twice! Lymarre perhaps a term in the military might be required for all physically fit men and women BEFORE admission to university.</p>
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		<title>By: jd</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-858</link>
		<dc:creator>jd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 08:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-858</guid>
		<description>Robert has a point about WW2. But there are other points. During the 30s, many universities had ROTC corps. Their members were called up and fought in WW2. Moreover, many universites ran accelerated courses for officer training.

In the 60s and 70s many universities gave up ROTC. And many even banned campus recruiting by the military.

I think the fact that the faculties of Harvard and Yale decided that defending the country that gave them free speech and freedom of the press wasn&#039;t part of their job needs explaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert has a point about WW2. But there are other points. During the 30s, many universities had ROTC corps. Their members were called up and fought in WW2. Moreover, many universites ran accelerated courses for officer training.</p>
<p>In the 60s and 70s many universities gave up ROTC. And many even banned campus recruiting by the military.</p>
<p>I think the fact that the faculties of Harvard and Yale decided that defending the country that gave them free speech and freedom of the press wasn&#8217;t part of their job needs explaining.</p>
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		<title>By: jd</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-859</link>
		<dc:creator>jd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 08:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-859</guid>
		<description>Robert has a point about WW2. But there are other points. During the 30s, many universities had ROTC corps. Their members were called up and fought in WW2. Moreover, many universites ran accelerated courses for officer training.

In the 60s and 70s many universities gave up ROTC. And many even banned campus recruiting by the military.

I think the fact that the faculties of Harvard and Yale decided that defending the country that gave them free speech and freedom of the press wasn&#039;t part of their job needs explaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert has a point about WW2. But there are other points. During the 30s, many universities had ROTC corps. Their members were called up and fought in WW2. Moreover, many universites ran accelerated courses for officer training.</p>
<p>In the 60s and 70s many universities gave up ROTC. And many even banned campus recruiting by the military.</p>
<p>I think the fact that the faculties of Harvard and Yale decided that defending the country that gave them free speech and freedom of the press wasn&#8217;t part of their job needs explaining.</p>
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		<title>By: Lymaree</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-857</link>
		<dc:creator>Lymaree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 17:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-857</guid>
		<description>Hmmm. Maybe a major in Philosphy ought to include a term in the military. It might be...errr...enlightening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm. Maybe a major in Philosphy ought to include a term in the military. It might be&#8230;errr&#8230;enlightening.</p>
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		<title>By: robert_piepenbrink</title>
		<link>http://blog.janehaddam.com/2009/05/23/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-856</link>
		<dc:creator>robert_piepenbrink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 11:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.janehaddam.com/?p=537#comment-856</guid>
		<description>A minor point, but one I think worth mentioning: Socrates wasn&#039;t &quot;a soldier before he was a philosopher&quot; in the way we would understand it today. Athens HAD no soldiers in the modern sense. Free adult males--at least citizens: I&#039;m not sure about metics--were expected to keep arms and armor appropriate to their wealth, and when the state voted to go to war, the same people who voted in the assembly--farmer and philosopher, tiler and trader--were expected to go home and get their hoplite armor on, or be rowing in the biremes. For Socrates, soldiering--and he took part in at least two campaigns and battles--wasn&#039;t something he gave up when he took up philosophy. It was something a citizen did, like jury duty or voting.

[And in one notable instance, when their allies were complaining about Spartans commanding a mixed force, the Spartan commander had all his hoplites stand, then called on the professions, one by one as he named them to sit down. After a time, no one was standing but Spartans. Only for them was being a soldier part of their self-definition and not a civic duty.)

But the broader point is well taken. If professors and film-makers run down the country and the civilization for reasons of professional advancement, that only pushes the motivation further back to the people who hire and promote them.

Some insight might be provided by the timing. We&#039;ve always had the odd traveler deeply impressed by somewhere he visited. The abolitionists saw the Constitution as a deeply flawed document, but they weren&#039;t anti-American. Even some of the early socialists were deeply patriotic. You get the beginnings of a shift following WWI, when it&#039;s clear the early communists not only feel that class trumps country, but that they have, if you will, a class home outside the United States, and the same logic soon applies to some racists, whether the &quot;home&quot; be Germany or Etheopia.
But all this is fringe stuff until the 1960&#039;s. In WWII, the universities had filled the ranks of the OSS. Samuel Elliot Morrison would write the official history of the Navy in the war. In Hollywood Capra would make propaganda films, and John Ford would be out filming in the combat zones, Most of the stars would at least pass through the services, and Jimmy Stewart would command a B-17 squadron flying combat missions against Germany,
Would anyone like to contrast this with twenty years later? And keep in mind that many of the opponents were not just arguing that fighting in Vietnam was strategically unwise--the Joint Chiefs might have agreed with them--but that the &quot;Democratic Republic of Vietnam&quot; was morally superior and was the side right-thinking people ought to be on. What was an eccentricity in Mark Twain--you should see his writings on the Moro Insurrection--was now the dominant position in American universities, and in our primary &quot;dream factory.&quot; The default position is the wrongness of America and the West. If we understood why there and then, we&#039;d understand why today.

But then I&#039;m generally inclined to blame the sixties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A minor point, but one I think worth mentioning: Socrates wasn&#8217;t &#8220;a soldier before he was a philosopher&#8221; in the way we would understand it today. Athens HAD no soldiers in the modern sense. Free adult males&#8211;at least citizens: I&#8217;m not sure about metics&#8211;were expected to keep arms and armor appropriate to their wealth, and when the state voted to go to war, the same people who voted in the assembly&#8211;farmer and philosopher, tiler and trader&#8211;were expected to go home and get their hoplite armor on, or be rowing in the biremes. For Socrates, soldiering&#8211;and he took part in at least two campaigns and battles&#8211;wasn&#8217;t something he gave up when he took up philosophy. It was something a citizen did, like jury duty or voting.</p>
<p>[And in one notable instance, when their allies were complaining about Spartans commanding a mixed force, the Spartan commander had all his hoplites stand, then called on the professions, one by one as he named them to sit down. After a time, no one was standing but Spartans. Only for them was being a soldier part of their self-definition and not a civic duty.)</p>
<p>But the broader point is well taken. If professors and film-makers run down the country and the civilization for reasons of professional advancement, that only pushes the motivation further back to the people who hire and promote them.</p>
<p>Some insight might be provided by the timing. We&#8217;ve always had the odd traveler deeply impressed by somewhere he visited. The abolitionists saw the Constitution as a deeply flawed document, but they weren&#8217;t anti-American. Even some of the early socialists were deeply patriotic. You get the beginnings of a shift following WWI, when it&#8217;s clear the early communists not only feel that class trumps country, but that they have, if you will, a class home outside the United States, and the same logic soon applies to some racists, whether the &#8220;home&#8221; be Germany or Etheopia.<br />
But all this is fringe stuff until the 1960&#8242;s. In WWII, the universities had filled the ranks of the OSS. Samuel Elliot Morrison would write the official history of the Navy in the war. In Hollywood Capra would make propaganda films, and John Ford would be out filming in the combat zones, Most of the stars would at least pass through the services, and Jimmy Stewart would command a B-17 squadron flying combat missions against Germany,<br />
Would anyone like to contrast this with twenty years later? And keep in mind that many of the opponents were not just arguing that fighting in Vietnam was strategically unwise&#8211;the Joint Chiefs might have agreed with them&#8211;but that the &#8220;Democratic Republic of Vietnam&#8221; was morally superior and was the side right-thinking people ought to be on. What was an eccentricity in Mark Twain&#8211;you should see his writings on the Moro Insurrection&#8211;was now the dominant position in American universities, and in our primary &#8220;dream factory.&#8221; The default position is the wrongness of America and the West. If we understood why there and then, we&#8217;d understand why today.</p>
<p>But then I&#8217;m generally inclined to blame the sixties.</p>
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